Opportunity to End Flouridation - Nov 2012

[Cabria YellowFlame]

From TD Sean Kyne in communication re: water flouridation in Ireland and upcoming renewal of flouridation contract. Please comment below if you are interested in following this up as a collective.

Hi Niamh,

I received the reply to the Parliamentary Question in relation to the fluoridation of the water supplies which I've pasted below. I'm not certain why this practice is continuing here when so many European countries including Northern Ireland have discontinued it.

It would be seem to me to be more appropriate to supply fluoride in a different form to persons who might require it rather than adding it to the general water supply. And as with many scientific debates, for every report in favour of fluoridation, one exists against it.

I think further debate is needed particularly with the end of the current HSE contract in sight.

All the best,

Seán.

QUESTION NO: 532

DÁIL QUESTION addressed to the Minister of State at the Department of Health (Ms. Shortall)
by Deputy Seán Kyne
for WRITTEN ANSWER on 10/07/2012

* To ask the Minister for Health if in view of the growing scientific doubt as to the benefit of fluoridation of public water supplies and in recognition that Ireland is one of last remaining countries in Europe not to have discontinued this practice, he will exit the current three year minimum contract for water fluoridation when the opportunity to do so arises in November 2012..

Seán Kyne T.D.

REPLY.
The Forum on Fluoridation advised in 2002 that the fluoridation of public piped water supplies should continue as a public health measure. The Irish Expert Body on Fluorides and Health, which was established in 2004, monitors new and emerging issues on fluoride and its effects on health and related matters.

The Expert Body confirms that, based on the review of all previous and current international and national scientific data, the balance of this scientific evidence worldwide confirms that water fluoridation, at the optimal level, does not cause any ill effects and continues to be effective for protecting the oral health of all age groups. The EU Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks (SCHER), published its ‘Opinion on critical review of any new evidence on the hazard profile, health effects, and human exposure to fluoride and the fluoridating agents of drinking water’ in 2011. The main conclusions of the SCHER report are that there are no known health implications from fluoridating water at levels used in the EU. There is also extensive evidence in Ireland from a series of national, regional and cross-border studies conducted between 1984 and 2006 that fluoridated drinking water substantially improves the dental health of children and adults.

The Health (Fluoridation of Water Supplies) Act 1960 provides that the HSE make arrangements for the fluoridation of public water supplies. The HSE makes the necessary contractual arrangements in relation to these responsibilities. There are no plans to discontinue the policy of fluoridation of public water supplies, which continues to make an effective contribution to oral health in Ireland.
Seán Kyne TD

[Diane, Denizen]

What crap! What scientific evidence? That statement is vague at best and who are this 'expert body'?
This is a white wash as one would expect from this den of vipers. They are so thick they don't get the fact that they drink the water too, or do they have fluoride filters paid for by the tax payer?
Right now nothing would surprise me!

[Morgan Freeman]

This is the expert panel, read it and weep.

(1) Professor Patrick Fottrell. Chairperson. National University of Ireland, Galway.

Professor Fottrell is a former president of University College Galway (N.U.I.G.). Following a change in government legislation, N.U.I. Galway set up the Galway University Foundation to generate private funding for new capital projects.(1) Professor Fottrell has some interesting connections.

The First Annual Report of Galway University Foundation shows that Board Members include Dr. Patrick Fottrell and businessman Thomas McDonogh (Thomas McDonogh & Sons).(2) Thomas McDonogh is the chairman of The McDonogh Group - one of the largest private companies in Ireland, with factories throughout Ireland, producing fertilisers, animal food stuffs and water treatment chemicals. He is also a director of over 20 companies.(3)

Interestingly, The McDonogh Group owns Albatros Fertilizers Ltd., New Ross, Co. Wexford, the suppliers of the fluoridating agent, hydrofluosilicic acid.(4,5) In 1998, Albators received £340,226.00 from the Eastern Regional Health Authority (ERHA) for supply of this fertiliser waste product to all the water treatment plants in Ireland. This chemical fluoride is pumped into our drinking water at the rate of 2000 gallons daily. As if to eliminate any possibility that these two Board members may be unknown to each other, in June 2000 Dr. Fottrell was among staff members who proposed Thomas McDonogh for an honorary doctorate (LL.D.).(6) There should be a serious concern that this constitutes an undeclared competing interest for the chairperson of the fluoridation forum, with such cosy connections making a mockery of the Department’s assertion that their chairman is 'not engaged in any way with the practice of fluoridation'.

(2) Dr. Gerard Gavin, Chief Dental Officer, Department of Health.

One of Ireland’s main keepers of the Fluoride Faith is the Department’s Chief Dental Office. Dr. Gerard Gavin was instrumental in the Dental Health Action Plan (1994).(7) This plan intends to "[i]ncrease efficiency and number of water fluoridation schemes."(8) Dr. Gavin recently demonstrated his openness on this subject, "[w]e consider fluoridation safe at the levels it is being used in Ireland and of great benefit in the treatment of dental caries."(9) He also recently proclaimed that, [i]f we can change our prevention habits, in terms of how we look after our teeth we may not need water fluoridation in the future."(10) This may mean that if we are all good boys and girls and brush our teeth properly we just might be spared further fluoride ingestion!

(3) Professor John Clarkson Dean, Dental School and Hospital, Trinity College, Dublin.

(4) Professor Denis O Mullane, Oral Health Services Research Centre, UCC.

The two professors are the two most highly qualified dental academics on the fluoridation forum. They have worked together before on many fluoride projects.(11)

Professor John Clarkson, currently Dean of Dublin Dental Hospital, was previously president of both International Association Dental Research (IADR) and American Association of Dental Research.(12) The IADR, not surprisingly, "fully endorses and strongly recommends the practice of water fluoridation for improving the oral health of nations."(13)

The IADR receives funding from Unilever and they co-present awards.(14) In addition, the "IADR-Dental Faculty has been made possible and is supported through an educational grant from Unilever Dental Research".(15) Unilever is a multi-national pharmaceutical firm producing fluoride toothpastes e.g. Mentadent, Signal and Close-up.(16)

Both Clarkson and O Mullane have promoted fluorides/fluoridation around the world for several years. In 1997, they opened the World Congress on Preventive Dentistry in South Africa with "Trends and developments in fluorides and fluoridation" which included the "[c]ost-effectiveness evaluations of fluoridation strategies".(17) Interestingly, this conference was sponsored by IADR and funded by Colgate, another fluoride toothpaste multi-national. In addition, Clarkson opened the 7th World Congress on Preventive Dentistry in Beijing in 2001.(18) The title of his presentation was, "Fluorides & their role in future preventive action" and the convention organised by IADR and sponsored by the fluoride triumvirate of Colgate, Procter & Gamble and Unilever.(19)

Professor Denis O Mullane, is also a member of IADR.(20) Surprisingly, he presents himself as "an independent objective research worker in the field of Dental Public Health" in a recent submission to the Dail Committee on Health and Children. However, he failed to mention that he has promoted fluoridation in Ireland and abroad for many years.(21,22) The British Fluoridation Society includes O Mullane on their information leaflets.(23) He is currently president of British Association for the Study of Community Dentistry (BASCD).(24) A recent conference in Cork, chaired by O Mullane, held an emotive debate on the effect of fluoride on hip fractures but speaker Prof Cyrus Cooper, professor of rheumatology at the University of Southampton, said he believed fluoridation was safe.(25)

Other connections include the British Nutrition Foundation (BNF). Professor O Mullane presented at a 1999 conference on Oral Health: diet and other factors.(29) The BNF was set up by sugar and pharmaceutical companies in the 1960s e.g. Tate & Lyle Ltd., Unilever PLC, Cadburys and Procter & Gamble.(30) A strange mix of fluoride and sugar. This organisation was also the subject of a recent BBC documentary, which suggested that BNF, despite its name, is a lobby group promoting the interests of sugar and pharmaceuticals multinationals around the globe. It is therefore no great surprise that on their Oral Health advice, fluoridation/fluoride is at No.2 with diet and sugar reduction displaced to No. 5.(31). Despite Professor O Mullane's profluoride bias, and his repeated denial that there are no health risks with this public health program, Minister Martin awarded O Mullane, on 27/2/2002, a five year grant estimated at 500,000 - 1,000,000 Euro to invesitgate the benefits and risks of water fluoridation.(32) If there are no risks why is O Mullane receiving this grant?

(5) Dr. Maire O Connor and (6) Dr. Howard Johnson, specialists in Public Health Medicine.

Dr. Johnson protests on the website of the Fluoridation Forum, that he "has no agenda on this issue and is proceeding on an open-minded basis".(33) However, he and Dr. O Connor co-authored the Faculty of Public Health Medicine (Royal College of Physicians) report "Water Fluoridation and Public Health".(34) The report, published in 1999, concluded, "the data available to date strongly supports the continuation of the current water fluoridation policies". This pro-fluoride conclusion appears to contradict his protestations.

After only two forum meetings Dr. O Connor also appeared to have made up her mind, "[a]t the moment the balance of evidence is such that water fluoridation continues to prevent dental caries and there’s no evidence other than dental fluorosis that it causes any harm to peoples health.". This comment recorded in a TV3 interview in November is interesting because Dr. O’ Connor reached such conclusions with ten scheduled forum meetings remaining!

(6) Dr. Carmel Parnell, the representative of the Irish Dental Association

Dr. Parnell also declares she "came to the Forum with a neutral attitude".(35) However, she represents an organisation that stated in June, "the Association would strongly support the continuation of the current water fluoridation policies".(36) In addition, Dr. Parnell was a member of a clinical examination team, which participated in a survey commissioned by the North Eastern Health Board in 1995. This survey stated, "(a)n even greater improvement in oral health could be achieved across the whole region by improving the effectiveness of water fluoridation schemes, as well as ensuring that where feasible, other schemes are fluoridated".

(7) Dr. Wayne Anderson representative of the Food Safety Authority of Ireland (FSAI).

A press release from the FSAI, in August 1999, advocates the use of tap water over bottled water for formula feed, "(m)ineral waters may have a high solute content, may contain inadequate fluoride and should not be used to mix formula or as an infant drink".(37) This appears to favour a pro-fluoride stance. However, following a recent risk assessment on fluoride which found, "that infants below the age of four months are exposed to doses of fluoride that exceed the recognised no observable effect level",(38) Dr. Anderson appears to contradict the 1999 statement. When questioned by the Irish Independent (27/2/2002) about overdosing bottle-feeding infants with fluoride he said parents should not be worried as "bottled water may have even higher fluoride levels than tap water". Two years ago bottled water had "inadequate fluoride" but now when the controversy is raging, "bottled water may have even higher fluoride levels than tap water". It seems Dr. Anderson will say anything to protect the status of water fluoridation.

(8) Dr. Joe Mullen representative of the Health Boards.

Dr. Mullen’s views on water fluoridation are well known. He recently co-wrote an editorial in the Irish Medical Journal summing up his ‘unbiased’ opinion, "[w]ater fluoridation is the most effective strategy to prevent decay as it reaches everyone, benefits all age groups and does not rely on compliance. It is our public duty and responsibility as health professionals to do our utmost to improve the dental health of all people and the continued support of water fluoridation should therefore be encouraged."(39)

He also wrote to the Irish Medical News to voice his further devotion, "the simple truth of the matter is that every single major review of the evidence, both medical and dental, has concluded two unarguable facts: (a) fluoridation benefits dental health and (b) adverse medical effects are unproven".(40) Dr. Mulllen also stated, "dentists relied on research from the most respected sources, such as the teaching universities, the WHO and the Centre for Disease Control and fluoride was "absolutely harmless" in the amounts put into the Irish water supply."(41)

It is difficult to understand how such opinions can be described as objective, independent or open.

(9) Mr. Kevin Moyles, Regional Public Analyst.

Although Mr. Moyles views on fluoridation are unknown, it would appear that he has been seriously eschewing any notion of transparency in relation to the issue. He has even knowingly misled the public on at least one occasion. An example of this occurred at a recent meeting of the Forum on Fluoridation (5/4/2001). At this meeting, closed to the public, Mr. Kevin Moyles, Head Public Analyst, stated that "…tests done so far by the Regional Analysts’ Laboratory suggest that the hydrofluosilicic acid (fluoridating agent) used is pure…."(42)

However citizens group Fluoride Free Water recently obtained a full chemical analysis of this acid under Freedom of Information Act 1997 from the Eastern Regional Health Auority. This confidential document (see attached analysis), dated 14/2/2001, was forwarded to Mr. Kevin Moyles but did not indicate the acid as "pure". In fact, one quarter of the H2SiF6 (acid) is contaminated, including carcinogens such as arsenic, chromium, nickel and mercury."(43) This brings into question the accuracy of Mr. Moyles comments on the fluoridating agent.

(10) Professor Miriam Wiley, Economic & Social Research Institute.

Professor Wiley works closely with Professor Denis O Mullane, and are project partners in EU funded research into Oral Health.(44) This research is commissioned at the Department of Oral Health and Development and the Oral Health Services Research Department, Cork University Hospital. The BIOMED1 and BIOMED2 programmes are investigating the "efficiency in the delivery of oral health care services; the measurement of fluoride absorption and ingestion from toothpaste by young children; and the development of a standardised method of recording enamel opacities." (45)

Another organisation that merits mention is the Dental Health Foundation Ireland. This a charitable trust(??) and is funded partly by the Department of Health. Their main mission appears to be the promotion of a simple message "Fluoridation of the public piped water supplies is the safest, most effective and most efficient method of preventing tooth decay."(46) They are major supporters of pro-fluoride publication e.g. they published Faculty of Public Health Medicine (Royal College of Physicians) report "Water Fluoridation and Public Health" as mentioned earlier.(47) They also held a conference in Cork last September entitled, "Promoting Oral Health in the 21st Century."(48) There were many supporters of fluoridation present including Dr. Gavin, Prof. O Mullane and Dora Henessey. Moreover,

(11) Professor Cecily Kelleher, Department of Health Promotion, National University of Ireland, Galway, also attended the conference.

Professor Kelleher recently gave a presentation on health promotion strategy, (49) reiterating that after "[e]xamining the goals of the 1995 Health Promotion Strategypertaining to oral health, Professor Kelleher identified the overall goal as one of improving the level of oral health in the general population. More specific objectives included:

To implement the 1994 four-year Dental Health Action Plan". As noted earlier this plan which intends to "[i]ncrease efficiency and number of water fluoridation schemes."(50)

http://homepage.eircom.net/~fluoridefree/Forum%20Analysis.htm

[Diane, Denizen]

So Morgan, we can narrow this down to this, all the 'expert group'are vested interest 'persons'. All the research I have seen to date, from reputable sources, shows clearly that fluoride is damaging to health in general terms, it damages brain function, is carcinogenic and when it is flushed down the drain is destroying the environment for all water dwelling beings. So in short, how the fuck do these supposed experts say its safe?

[Cabria YellowFlame]

Would it be possible for this to be brought to court? Like, if a citizen's group were to accuse the government with a crime such as poisoning the public water supply? Negligence, if nothing else? Is that possible? Could it be done? Because there's no point emailing people about this, clearly. Like I said, Kyne was the Only One to reply to the email I sent every one of the TDs all over the country. If anything is to be changed, it seems we're going to have to go to court. I don't think their arguments/defences would stand up for a second in a European court, seeing as all the other countries in Europe realise it's better not to have flouride in the public water supply. Seriously, could we bring it to EuroCourt? Does anyone here know law and courts?

[Cabria YellowFlame]

Thanks a lot, Freeman :) I was wondering myself about the people behind that organisation and meant to look into it but it would have taken me ages to figure all that out. Cheers.

[Morgan Freeman]

@ Cabria Yellow Fame

The EU Commission has addressed such concerns in its replies to the petitions made by Irish and British antifluoridation campaigners (EU Petitions 0210/2007 and 0211/2007).

The EU Commission clearly does not have any difficulty in law with the practice of water fluoridation. The Commission stated in 2007: “Taking into account that there is no evidence of an infringement of EU law in this case, the Commission can take no legal action”. More specifically, it ruled in 2008 that “The Commission has scrutinised the practice of adding hexafluorosilicic acid
to drinking water whilst adhering to the maximum permissible fluoride concentration values under the Drinking Water Directive. It confirms that it does not see any evidence of infringements of the Drinking Water Directive, the Dangerous Waste Directive and the Medicinal Products Directive.” ii
The Commission also noted that there was no impediment to water fluoridation arising from international treaties:

“It must be noted that adding fluoride to drinking water is a national decision which does not flow from any obligation under Community law. “The Biomedicines Convention, focussing upon human rights and upon the involuntary application of medication has been opened for signature by the Council of Europe in Oviedo in 1997. However, the convention has not been ratified at this stage by the European Community, and for the time being it has no legal effects in the Community. Moreover, it is noted that according to the information available to the Commission, none of the EU members States which add fluoride to drinking water is a party to the Convention.”1 There have been no EU Commission statements or rulings from the European Court that have defined water fluoridation as being in any way contrary to EU or international law.

@Diane

" how the fuck do these supposed experts say its safe?"

These guys are captious and fallacious reasoners, verbal wizards, who inhabit the land of sophistry. You can bet the horns on Micheál Martins head that they have a vested interest. I'm sure these guys are well "compensated" for their time!

Fluoride is the only chemical added to tap water for the purpose of medication (i.e., to supposedly prevent cavities, which studies show is not actually the case). Every other chemical is added for the purpose of improving the water’s safety.

These creatures are in ethical violation! Should we, as a society and a community, be able to
force each other to swallow a medication on a daily basis? Should a voter have the right to force his neighbor to ingest fluoride, even if it is against that neighbor’s will?

Medication should "always" be an individual choice, and those who believe they need additional fluoride in their diets could simply take a fluoride supplement. Some people are highly sensitive to fluoride and more vulnerable to its toxic effects, including diabetics, the elderly, the malnourished, pregnant women, and infants.

If we focus on the ethics of compulsory medication I feel we have a fighting chance, and at the very least it will expose these creatures for what they are.

[A Solas]

Cabria YellowFlame said:

Would it be possible for this to be brought to court? Like, if a citizen's group were to accuse the government with a crime such as poisoning the public water supply? Negligence, if nothing else? Is that possible? Could it be done? Because there's no point emailing people about this, clearly. Like I said, Kyne was the Only One to reply to the email I sent every one of the TDs all over the country. If anything is to be changed, it seems we're going to have to go to court. I don't think their arguments/defences would stand up for a second in a European court, seeing as all the other countries in Europe realise it's better not to have flouride in the public water supply. Seriously, could we bring it to EuroCourt? Does anyone here know law and courts?

http://freemanireland.ning.com/forum/topics/http-suethegovforfluori...

Keep in mind that the courts exist to proliferate and protect these criminals.

[Cabria YellowFlame]

I must say, fair play to Kyne for taking the bull by the horns on this. But it's going to take more than one man to change it. We are seriously retarded as a country to be this lackadaisical about something like this. If we put it in financial context, it would be of benefit to our fucked money situation to stop paying for something like water flouridation, considering how bad it is for public health etc. When framed in terms of money, do you think it would get more notice from people in the general public? There has to be a way to fix this.

Also, do we have a back-up plan for if this site is ever taken down? I mean, if shit hits the fan, and the internet is taken over or someone targets this site, will we still be able to connect together? I think all these economic ruin videos are making me paranoid. But paranoia evolved as a survival mechanism so...

[Morgan Freeman]

On Wednesday, 6 June 2012 Deputy Kevin Humphreys asked the Minister for Health if any cost benefit analysis has been performed in the past five years on the estimated €3 to €4 million annual cost of water fluoridation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan also asked the Minister for Health for the evidence upon which he bases the decision that fluoridation of water is healthy for human consumption; if he has carried out studies monitoring the overall oral health benefits for the Irish population from use of fluorides in water; if his attention has been drawn to the recent studies published by the International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology which links fluoride with brain damage; the reason Ireland is one of the only countries in the EU to administer fluoride in public water supplies; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Róisín Shortall): Answered both questions together.

My Department has not conducted a cost benefit analysis on the policy of fluoridation. Policy on this issue is guided by international studies, which indicate that the cost of water fluoridation is a small fraction of the savings in dental treatment costs.

The Irish Expert Body on Fluorides and Health confirms that, based on the review of all previous and current international and national scientific data, the balance of this scientific evidence worldwide confirms that water fluoridation, at the optimal level, does not cause any ill effects and continues to be effective for protecting the oral health of all age groups. These issues have also been addressed by other recognised authorities such as the World Health Organisation. The EU Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks (SCHER), published its ‘Opinion on critical review of any new evidence on the hazard profile, health effects, and human exposure to fluoride and the fluoridating agents of drinking water’ in May 2011. +The main conclusions of the SCHER report are that there are no known health implications from fluoridating water at levels used in the EU. There is also extensive evidence in Ireland from a series of national, regional and cross-border studies conducted between 1984 and 2006 that fluoridated drinking water substantially improves the dental health of children and adults.

The Irish Expert Body does not agree with the views expressed by the organisation referred to by the Deputy. This group does not appear to have formal accreditation as an academy and is not recognised as the representative voice for the fields of oral medicine and toxicology.

They will always defer to "Experts".

I have spoken with friends and family in relation to the quality of tap water. Most if not all of them either cannot or will not even consider the possibility that fluoride could be damaging to their health. When asked if they think it is ethical to be medicated without consent, they get the hollow glazed over look and the shutters come down. Their belief in the political and stately priesthoods runs deep.

Personally I don't have a problem with experts as such. I recognise that there are many, many people out there with with far more knowledge in their respective fields. If my vehicle breaks down I will seek out a competent mechanic, if I become physically ill, I will visit a doctor. However it is only there advice I seek, being a big boy I will evaluate their advice and then make my own decision on how to proceed.

The State however in it infantile wisdom seems to be of the mind that I am its child and it my father! It knows what is best for little Morgan and if little Morgan does not like it, we shall punish and chastise him.

So, How do we fix this? The State must die! Its rotting carcass must be dragged into the light for all and sundry to see. Its agents must be held to full account and proof of their authority demanded.

We must arm ourselves with the wand of intuition, the cup of sympathy, the sword of reason, and the pentacle of valor, for it is there (the legends say) the Medicine of Metals, the Elixir of Life, the Philosopher's Stone, True Wisdom and Perfect Happiness is to be found.

As to your paranoia, is it perfectly natural to be paranoid in this day and age. We are living through an age of enlightenment, we have more information and knowledge available to us now than was ever available in recorded history, tragically most of us have little idea how to evaluate all this information in a rational logical way. Years of state schooling have left most of us as semi conscious functional illiterates.

I don't know if we have a back up plan in the event of this site going down. Perhaps you could create a thread asking people for contact details in the event of the site going down.

Don't let the paranoia get the best of you. Chapel Perilous awaits us all. I have visit it on more than one occasion.

"In researching occult conspiracies, one eventually faces a crossroad of mythic proportions (called Chapel Perilous in the trade). You come out the other side either stone paranoid or an agnostic; there is no third way. I came out agnostic.

"Chapel Perilous, like the mysterious entity called "I," cannot be located in the space-time continuum; it is weightless, odorless, tasteless and undetectable by ordinary instruments. Indeed, like the Ego, it is even possible to deny that it is there. And yet, even more like the Ego, once you are inside it, there doesn't seem to be any way to ever get out again, until you suddenly discover that it has been brought into existence by thought and does not exist outside thought. Everything you fear is waiting with slavering jaws in Chapel Perilous, but if you are armed with the wand of intuition, the cup of sympathy, the sword of reason, and the pentacle of valor, you will find there (the legends say) the Medicine of Metals, the Elixir of Life, the Philosopher's Stone, True Wisdom and Perfect Happiness."

(excerpt from Cosmic Trigger By Robert Anton Wilson)

[joseph james murphy]

A Scientific critique of the fluoridation forum report, Ireland 2002, states ; In our view the report fails to provide a proper scientific review of the many health concerns raised about the practice of water fluoridation in Ireland, and elsewhere. Out of a total of 295 pages, only 17 pages [pp108~124] are devoted to health issues other than dental fluorosis. Of these, a heavy reliance is placed on reviewing " other reviews" some of which are dated. Incredibly,for a study which took two years, only 2 pages [pp122~123] are devoted to an independent analysis of specific health studies.

[Cabria YellowFlame]

Morgan Freeman said:

"Chapel Perilous, like the mysterious entity called "I," cannot be located in the space-time continuum; it is weightless, odorless, tasteless and undetectable by ordinary instruments. Indeed, like the Ego, it is even possible to deny that it is there. And yet, even more like the Ego, once you are inside it, there doesn't seem to be any way to ever get out again, until you suddenly discover that it has been brought into existence by thought and does not exist outside thought. Everything you fear is waiting with slavering jaws in Chapel Perilous, but if you are armed with the wand of intuition, the cup of sympathy, the sword of reason, and the pentacle of valor, you will find there (the legends say) the Medicine of Metals, the Elixir of Life, the Philosopher's Stone, True Wisdom and Perfect Happiness."

(excerpt from Cosmic Trigger By Robert Anton Wilson)

Thank you for sharing all you said, particularly re: Chapel Perilous - you have given me a name for something I just couldn't adequately sum up before! Until now, so thank you very much for that.

The boyos in Gov't really are a bunch of scoundrels. It's about time people who make laws serve the people rather than do what the current lot is doing, which is disrespecting, underestimating, ignoring etc.

There's a term for the way this state works, it's called Paternalism. Here's a version of paternalism that could be a bit better but still involves herding people through their lives like cattle: http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2007/01/libertarian_pat.html

P.S. I'm happy to see something happening about all this from a citizens taking on the gov't pov: http://suethegovforfluoride.com/

[A Solas]

Cabria Yellow Flame Said:
" Here's a version of paternalism that could be a bit better but still involves herding people through their lives like cattle: http://uchicagolaw.typepad.com/faculty/2007/01/libertarian_pat.html"

It's basically promoting behaviorism, not surprising either as University of Chicago is a Rockefeller owned operation closely tied to Rhodes Scholarships.